Mathematical Talent: Interview with Issac Greenspan

by Paula Olszewski-Kubilius, PhD

CTD director Paula Olszewski-Kubilius, Ph.D., recently met with former student, Issac Greenspan. Issac recounts his experiences in education from elementary school through university. In the course of his education, Issac and his parents sought programs that would accommodate his accelerated academic pace while sustaining his social growth. Now a math teacher at Evanston Township High School, Issac illustrates the importance of parent advocacy and teacher mentoring.

Paula: You have been a part of CTD for a number of years as a student in the program, and now you’re teaching in the Summer Program. Do you recall in your childhood when you became aware of your math ability?

Isaac: In first grade I was at a private school doing second grade work, and it was boring. I had a teacher who tutored me. I did not understand what was happening at the time, but since then I found out that my parents had a big disagreement with the principal that year over what services they were to provide for me academically which culminated in our being asked not to come back to the school, apparently. Then I went into Evanston Public Schools, and I went right into third grade.

Paula: And how did that go?

Isaac: I think I was in the upper second level or upper level in the English/Language Arts /History group and also in the math. Back then they used the DMI, diagnostic math inventory tests, and found I mastered a lot of the concepts in fifth grade math already going into second grade. I sort of worked on my own through those old 1980's kind of books up to grade eight math that year. The next year, I did Algebra I with Barb Hiller. After that, I went to Evanston Township High School (ETHS) as a fifth grader to do geometry. It worked because the program combined sixth, seventh, and eighth graders, so I was lumped in with the right age group. In fifth grade there were a number of people, my family and a couple of other families, who went to the administration and said the fifth and sixth grade science classes were not challenging. I remember spending an entire period coloring pictures of the heart, and if we colored them right, we got to stay and watch The Little Mermaid. That was typical of the lack of appropriate context. The end result of this parental request was that they pulled some of the fifth and sixth graders into the seventh and eighth grade science rotation between Bio-Chem and Physics. But since my parents knew some administrators and I had already been at the high school a year, I took Earth Science Honors at Evanston Township High School in sixth grade, in addition to second-year algebra. In seventh grade, I took Biology Honors and Trigonometry Analysis Honors at the high school. In eighth grade, I took AP Calculus, Chemistry Honors, and then Spanish II Honors, and also AP Computer Science. I was at the high school almost all day in eighth grade.

Paula: Was anybody else close to your age doing that with you?

Isaac: No. There were some kids in one or two classes.

Paula: What did you do when you entered high school?

Isaac: My freshman year I took Multivariable Calculus and Physics Honors, but I moved into the Chem-Phys program in the second year.

Paula: So was there enough curriculum left at ETHS for you to spend four years?

Isaac: Well, yes and no. There were enough courses I could have taken. My freshman year I took two quarters of computer science at Northwestern. I took first-year and second-year Japanese at Northwestern. I took courses at Northwestern in math my junior and senior year. That was the start of ETHS students going to the Northwestern program.

Paula: Which is something the high school does every year now.

Isaac: Right, that was the first year as a formalized program, although kids had done it before.

Paula: You had a situation where it was obvious to the middle school or the elementary school that you were beyond the elementary curriculum, so they gave you a private tutor to do algebra in the fourth grade, and from then on you were basically accelerated, going to the high school in fifth grade. You started going to Northwestern really in eighth or ninth grade, right?

Isaac: Yes.

Paula: Given that you were accelerated a lot, did you ever feel that it was too much? Did you ever feel like you burned out on the math or did you feel pushed?

Isaac: At the very end, my senior year, I took two math courses at Northwestern, one of which was a grad-level algebra course, and it was just too much at that point. It wasn't so much like I felt I had been accelerated too far. I just felt like it was a poor course choice. As far as acceleration goes, academically it felt very appropriate. By and large socially, it was not a big deal through high school and middle school because I took classes with many of the same people.

Paula: And how was it as a high school student at Northwestern?

Isaac: That was a little weird. It's not the same feeling as being in a high school class, where you have a lot of interaction. Particularly college math classes are not as focused on interpersonal interaction as high school.

Paula: Did you consider just going to college early?

Isaac: Not really. For the same reason I didn't skip eighth grade–I felt like socially it would not work well. In high school I was having a lot of fun being a high school student with my friends, and I did not want to give that up.

Paula: Speaking of friends, a lot of really bright kids find it difficult to find a friend. At least in educational literature they talk about how kids can't, because they don't have other kids at their same level, and so they often times feel kind of isolated. What was your experience with your peer group?

Isaac: I think that’s very true, particularly in elementary and middle school settings where academics and socialization are very heavily tied together. I think by high school, in an accelerated situation, you have sort of a rift between the people who are your age and the people who are your academic peers. It is hard to find true peers in both senses. But you can find friends among each group that are friends in that certain context. The academic difference doesn't matter as much within your age group. Your friends are the people who are your age who do similar activities outside of academics. The people who I was friends with were not the other exceptional people.

Paula: That gave you kind of a broad scope of friends.

Isaac: Yes.

Paula: What did you do in college?

Isaac: I majored in math. I was at NYU for three years. Half way through–so in the middle of my second year there–I started an education minor. I was sort of unsure as to whether or not I wanted to do a Ph.D. in math. I was kind of looking to pick up an actual skill that I would enjoy–something I could do right out of college without having to spend another five years of my life in school. There were a lot of different interesting things about teaching math that appealed to me. One of these was that teachers seem to be a much more diverse and social group than people who are mathematicians.

Paula: Was this a better fit for you then with your personality and interests and so on?

Isaac: I am still not sure it is the right personality fit sometimes, but it feels much better than in the college setting. After student teaching, I decided I wanted to go into grad school for teaching–to study it a little longer and be a year older, and I went into the MAT program at the University of Chicago.

Paula: So as you look back, what were the significant supports you had? You obviously developed your ability to a high degree. What, in your perception, were significant factors that helped that to occur?

Isaac: Probably the most significant factor early on was parental advocacy. We ended up leaving my private school because my parents were advocating for me. My parents went around and chose a school they knew had administrators who would accommodate me. And then, once having made connections, I was able to get acceleration and accommodation in other areas also.

Paula: As you have met other people in your life, do you think that your experience was unusual for someone with your level of talent?

Isaac: I think so. I do not think I have met many people who have had the same ease of accommodation. Now my parents might say it was not at all that easy, but at least to me, the perception was this is just what you do.

Paula: Were there any teachers who were particularly influential?

Isaac: One teacher who really affected me at ETHS was John Benson. I don't know if I can even quantify his impact because I have known him so long. It is hard for me to think of math and teaching math without thinking of him. Certainly in math he was one of the most outstanding teachers overall. Also, my AP Chem-Phys. teacher, Bob Horton, was just an incredibly forceful teacher. His class was very difficult, but in retrospect having him over that two-year span made the AP test a low obstacle.

Paula: What are your plans for the future?

Isaac: At the moment trying to get through this first year of teaching.

Paula: Are you finding it challenging?

Isaac: It is very different than my student teaching experiences. Evanston is a very different place. The honors classes here are actually challenging and the students are very very interested in their grades. Evanston is a much more established procedural school with suburban kids. I student taught in New York, and then I student taught at Walter Payton last year. Those are very different places, but both were city schools and that was the biggest difference–from a city school to a suburban school.